I wrote that griefing actions are liberating the griefer from social norms and helping him become a more efficient person, citing the Goons as example who are the most obnoxious griefers and also important members of the most successful EVE player group. The most common counter-argument was "they are just members of another social group, following their norms". Of course this can be ignored as merely semantic argument since it doesn't question that anti-social acts make one more effective, it merely claims that the gain appears on the group and not individual level.
However Dark Segura on the goblinworks channel found a much better counter-argument: the Goonswarm is a group existing in the reality and their acceptance/support for griefing is real. On the other hand the "large-society" is not a really existing entity as it does nothing. I mean if you are a Goon griefing someone, other Goons will act positively towards you. If you give donation to a poor player to help him out, "the people" will not do anything for you. "The carebears", "the l33t PvP-ers" are characteristics and not social groups. There are many people with brown eyes, yet they don't know each other, don't support each other, don't do actions together because of this characteristic.
Some of the objects of our World are people or groups of people. If you bump into people on the street with the idea that "I'm asocial, I refuse to care for people", you are an idiot. Just like you avoid collision with street lamps you shall avoid collision with people. Not because they have feelings, but because they have mass and velocity. Being social is trying to get the respect and liking of others. These aren't measurable, "real" things. Seeking them is stupid. However seeking benefits and avoiding harm coming from people is just as rational as doing the same with other objects.
Social people are bots. You should treat like them. Using social skills isn't social. Actually it's part of the defining criteria of psychopathy: superficial charm, lying, cunning, manipulative. If you do X and in turn other people do Y, than you shall consider Y the natural consequence of X, just like you'd do in an inanimate environment. I've never suggested ignoring social skills. They are practically the programming language of the social bots. The problem comes when someone is not programming these bots but being them. When interpersonal actions are not based on goals but "moral", "doing the right thing", "getting karma", "being a nice guy".
If there would be a Highsec Vigilantes alliance who actively hunt known gankers, scammers, trolls then being a "nice carebear" could be a rational action: "I don't want to be ganked by HV so I don't misbehave". There are other rational ways of being "nice": "I want to join a miner corp and they take no one with negative sec status" or "I want incursions but they kick me if I'm in war so I stay away from deccing corps".
The big difference between the Goons and the socials is that the Goons have a real social group, while the random socials do not. The Goons receive rewards for acting the way they do from this group, while random socials receive nothing from their imaginary group. So Goons are not in a social group like the others. They are in a social group unlike the others who has an imaginary group "the people" and hope that if they are nice and friendly with randoms, "the people" will love and respect them.
You can join trading discussions on the Goblinworks channel.
Thursday morning report: 95.3B Ouch, negative daily record! (1.5+0.5B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on logi, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 0.5 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).
However Dark Segura on the goblinworks channel found a much better counter-argument: the Goonswarm is a group existing in the reality and their acceptance/support for griefing is real. On the other hand the "large-society" is not a really existing entity as it does nothing. I mean if you are a Goon griefing someone, other Goons will act positively towards you. If you give donation to a poor player to help him out, "the people" will not do anything for you. "The carebears", "the l33t PvP-ers" are characteristics and not social groups. There are many people with brown eyes, yet they don't know each other, don't support each other, don't do actions together because of this characteristic.
Some of the objects of our World are people or groups of people. If you bump into people on the street with the idea that "I'm asocial, I refuse to care for people", you are an idiot. Just like you avoid collision with street lamps you shall avoid collision with people. Not because they have feelings, but because they have mass and velocity. Being social is trying to get the respect and liking of others. These aren't measurable, "real" things. Seeking them is stupid. However seeking benefits and avoiding harm coming from people is just as rational as doing the same with other objects.
Social people are bots. You should treat like them. Using social skills isn't social. Actually it's part of the defining criteria of psychopathy: superficial charm, lying, cunning, manipulative. If you do X and in turn other people do Y, than you shall consider Y the natural consequence of X, just like you'd do in an inanimate environment. I've never suggested ignoring social skills. They are practically the programming language of the social bots. The problem comes when someone is not programming these bots but being them. When interpersonal actions are not based on goals but "moral", "doing the right thing", "getting karma", "being a nice guy".
If there would be a Highsec Vigilantes alliance who actively hunt known gankers, scammers, trolls then being a "nice carebear" could be a rational action: "I don't want to be ganked by HV so I don't misbehave". There are other rational ways of being "nice": "I want to join a miner corp and they take no one with negative sec status" or "I want incursions but they kick me if I'm in war so I stay away from deccing corps".
The big difference between the Goons and the socials is that the Goons have a real social group, while the random socials do not. The Goons receive rewards for acting the way they do from this group, while random socials receive nothing from their imaginary group. So Goons are not in a social group like the others. They are in a social group unlike the others who has an imaginary group "the people" and hope that if they are nice and friendly with randoms, "the people" will love and respect them.
You can join trading discussions on the Goblinworks channel.
Thursday morning report: 95.3B Ouch, negative daily record! (1.5+0.5B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on logi, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 0.5 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).
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